MIlitary hardware of the mid-70`s...

[Paul Hanson]

I need some help regarding NATO and Soviet military hardware from the period 1975-80 for a scenario I`m working on. Basically, I need some clues as to what types of tanks and planes I should feature in it. So far, I have:

NATO:

Tanks:
M48 Patton
M60 Patton
Leopard
Chieftain
AMX-30

Aircraft:
F-4 Phantom
Jaguar
Harrier
Mirage III
F-14 Tomcat
F-15 Eagle
B-52 Stratofortress

Soviet:

Tanks:
T-62
T-64
T-72

Aircraft:
Mig-21bis
Mig-23 Flogger

As you can probably tell, I`m mainly having trouble with Soviet units. Can anyone suggest any tanks, artillery or aircraft I should include? Any on the list that shouldn`t really be there? (I want aircraft that were stationed in Europe during this time).

I`m off to bed now, but when I check this thread at college tommorrow, I expect to see lots of useful replies.

[BeBMan]

Not completely sure, but I would say for the Soviet Union Mig 25 (heavy/longe range interceptor), MiG 27 (ground attack version of the Mig 23), Su 9 (fighter), Su 15 (interceptor), Tu 22 (bomber), Mi 24 attack helis, as well as Mi 8 transport helis and perhaps Ka 25 navy helis (mainly for anti sub missions).
Artillery: Self propelled 122mm and 152mm (forgot the names ), and a wide range of towed guns. Also rocket launchers (modern Katyusha´s). For the tanks, I think your´s are right.

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[Panda]

Depending on what you define as the mid 1970s, if you're going to be puritanical you might have difficulty having the F-14 and F-15 straight away. And depending your choice of theatre will also determine whether your US units will be Airforce or Navy. For attack aircraft the USN used the A-6, and the Airforce the F-105. In Europe, the Mirage F-1 formed the backbone of the French Army Airforce, with the Etendard in the attack role. Germany and Italy had tons of F-104 Starfighters as interceptors. In Britain the RAF was using the Lightning as primary air defence (but I don't think they deployed to Germany?) and Jaguars as Strike aircraft. The Royal Navy was using Phantoms and Buccaneers respectively until the Ark Royal was retired during this period, then all the aircraft were transfered.

For the Soviets, you're right that the MiG-21s and MiG-23 formed the bulk of the fighters. They also used MiG-25s. For strike aircraft they had the Su-22 as a fighter bomber, and the Su-24 as a strike aricraft. Plus their strategic aircraft: the Tu-16 and Tu22, but you'd have to check the service dates yourself because I'm not sure off the top of my head. I know the original Tu-22 was redesigned completely and still designated the Tu-22M (I have an icon for that). The MiG-29 and Su-27 were in development at this time and first flew ~1977.

If you want a bit of fantasy, aircraft that never made it, think about the American B-70, the British TSR-1, and the Canadian Arrow.

[Exile]

IIRC, the MIG-25 Foxbat was the "revolutionary" aircraft of the period for the Soviet bloc, while early versions of the f-14 were the state-of-the-art for NATO. The M-60 was the NATO MBT, but plans were in the works even then for the MBT-70, an early proto-prototype of the Abrams MBT. NATO still utilized the M-113 APC extensively, in many roles. If you like, I can provide you with statistics of the AFVs of the period; armor thickness, main guns, horsepower/weight ratios, speed, range (how-far-can-it-go-on-a-tank-o-gas), along with relevant comparisons of similar WWII vehicles. You would be surprised at how well the panther matches up against state-o-the-art mid-60s and 70s military hardware. The T-62 was the Soviet MBT, but the T-55 & 54 were still in use (as well as the T-10, a modification of the WWII JS-III). The Soviets also had a series of 8-wheel BMP APCs and used a relatively advanced APC code named Sagger, which was capable of lobbing some very effective AT missles. Keep in mind that the numbers ratio of NATO to Soviet bloc tanks was always about 10-1. Right up through the mid-80s, the Warsaw Pact forces in Eastern Europe could, at any time, field roughly 50,000 tanks (source; Encyclopedia Brittancia Book of the Year, vols 1966-1987).

I can tell you quite a bit more. Contact me if you like and I'll be happy to provide you with more info.

Salutations,
Exile

[master on high]

No...the T-62 was too old...the latest Soviet tanks were the T-64s (T-72s were the export models). There were T-62s, T-54/55s, and even a lot of T-34s in abundance at the time.

US Aircraft (circa 75-80)

A-4 (First Operational Flight 1954)
A-6 (1960)
A-7 (1965)
A-10 (1972)
B-1 (?)
B-52 (?)
F-4 (1958)
F-5 (1972)
F-14 (1970)
F-15 (1972)
F-16 (1976)
F/A-18 (1978)
F-111 (1964)

British Aircraft

Buccaneer (First Operational Flight 1958)
Harrier (1967)
Hawk (1974)
Jaguar (1968)
Lightnening (1964)
Sea Harrier (1978)
F.2 Tornado (1979)
Tornado IDS (1974)

French Aircraft

Alpha Jet ((First Operational Flight 1973 w/ W. Germany)
Mirage III and 5 (1956; 1967)
Mirage IV (?)
Mirage F1 (1968)
Mirage 2000 (1978)
Super Etendard (1974)

Soviet Aircraft

MiG-21 (First Operational Flight 1957)
MiG-23 (~1966)
MiG-25 (~1965/65)
MiG-27 (1970)
MiG-29 (?)
Su-7 (1955)
Su-11 (1961)
Su-15 (1965)
Su-17/22 (1966)
Su-24 (1970)
Su-25 (?)
Su-27 (?)
Tu-16 (?)
Tu-20/95 (?)
Tu-22M (?)
Tu-128 (1958/59)
Yak-28 (?)
Yak-36 (1971)

Other Aircraft:
Israeli Kfir
Chinese Q-5
Japanese F1
Swedish Drakken & Viggen
Various F-104
Italian AM-X

I guess that'll do...

[Pap1723]

Hey, good idea for a scenario, hope you can finish it and be happy with the results.

I'm assuming by 1970's you are talking about after the Vietnam War. In that case, one of the most important units to include is the B-52 as it first saw action in Vietnam.

Also, you need to make realistic ICBM's that can travel from America to Russia in one turn, but in order to avoid just an all out nuke war, invoke penalties through the events file if one is used, or possibly if it is built.

I have many other good ideas if you'd like some info, feel free to ask, or e-mail...

pap1723@aol.com

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"Every man dies, but not every man really lives."
-William Wallace in Braveheart

[Jimmywax]

I don't think that there is much that I can add here. Everyone else just about covered everything. The only unit that I could see that was missing was the Soviet Mi-4 Bison.(I have an icon for this if you need one) Also, here are some links that might help you:
http://members.tripod.com/~aliabuazi...tary/main.html
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5423/
http://www.galope.com/mike/frames.htm

I hate to pirate your thread here. Exile, I think that that armor info could really help me out. Also, Andrew Livings I could use that Tu-22 icon for a scenario that I have planned.
[This message has been edited by Jimmywax (edited April 26, 2001).]

[Paul Hanson]

quote: Originally posted by Pap1723 on 04-25-2001 09:36 PM I'm assuming by 1970's you are talking about after the Vietnam War. In that case, one of the most important units to include is the B-52 as it first saw action in Vietnam.

No, actually it`s a fictional scenario about a Soviet invasion of Europe in 1975. Sorry to disappoint you.

And thanks for the replies, people.

[Jimmywax]

quote: Originally posted by Exile on 04-25-2001 07:12 PM The Soviets also had a series of 8-wheel BMP APCs and used a relatively advanced APC code named Sagger, which was capable of lobbing some very effective AT missles.

The Soviets 8-wheel APC's were not BMP's but the BTR-60, 70, and 80.
[This message has been edited by Jimmywax (edited April 26, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Jimmywax (edited April 26, 2001).]

[Exile]

I have only one thing to say;

DOH!

Exile

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Lost in America
"a freaking mastermind." --Stefu
"or a very good liar." --Stefu

[Jimmywax]

No problem Exile. If you send me that info on armoured vehicles you will be redeemed in my eyes.

[Jimmywax]

Hey Paul are those units I sent you going to work. Do you need more?

[Exile]

JW, give me a couple of days to dig up the source. It's currently buried in my closet in a box underneath many other boxes. But I'll get to it shortly.

Salutations,
Exile

[Jimmywax]

You should make up a wish list and send it to me. For instance do you want the BMP or BTR series of APC. If you send me a list I can work on yours while I work on Orion's units for his scenario. Creating the units is my favorite part of making scenarios so it's no problem at all.

[Paul Hanson]

quote: Originally posted by Jimmywax on 04-27-2001 03:10 AM Hey Paul are those units I sent you going to work. Do you need more?

Soory, I wasn`t actually aware you`d sent me some. I`ll check now.